TIME reporter: Zelensky is a stubborn leader. He's seen scarier things than Trump
He is impulsive. He is stubborn. And he has seen scarier things than Trump, says someone who knows Zelensky very well – Simon Shuster, a reporter with TIME magazine and the author of The Showman. Does he see a path to a peace deal? And does he think Zelensky would want to run again for the presidency in the next election?
Do you think that Zelensky has nightmares about Trump?
I think Zelensky, over the last three years, has seen scarier things than Trump. I've often been surprised when talking to members of Zelensky's team by how calm they have been, even when the situation with Trump and the relationship with the Americans has been very worrying and alarming. They generally seem kind of calm, certainly more calm than you'd expect. When I ask them why, they say: We've been fighting Putin and the Russians for three years, nothing scares us anymore. They generally take an optimistic, hopeful attitude.
I know you said that Zelensky has seen worse things than Trump, but do you think that he sleeps better after the Jeddah talks, during which the Ukrainians agreed to the ceasefire and the U.S renewed its intelligence sharing and military aid?
That is a breakthrough, certainly. It's the first time that I've felt the end of the war or some kind of solution, at least a temporary ceasefire, looks to be within reach. I don't remember feeling that way in the last three years. So yes, it’s a breakthrough and it's also important for Zelensky. But he also has to think about the domestic question of selling this deal and the ceasefire, whatever it is, to the Ukrainian people and maybe especially to the families of Ukrainian soldiers who have died and to Ukrainian military personnel who continue to fight. One thing that he thinks a lot about is making sure that they never feel that their sacrifices have been in vain. That is something that worries him about a deal like this. We don't know what the final parameters will be of any peace deal with the Russians, if they agree to cooperate. But in any case, it seems quite clear that Ukraine will have to accept at least a temporary loss of large amounts of territory, as well as other concessions that the Ukrainians have already made. I think what worries Zelensky now is how his people will react and whether he will be able to convince them that this is the best way forward.
It's a kind of paradox that the route to the ceasefire started with a heated argument at the White House. You wrote that the news about the argument caught you while having dinner with a colonel in the Ukrainian Armed Forces, who said to you that he respects Zelensky for what he did, but, and I quote him directly, “we are fucked.” Do Ukrainians feel pride and fear at the same time?
Yes, those were the two emotions that my friends, colleagues and sources in Kyiv were having, often at the same time. Both pride in their leader for standing up to a bully in the Oval Office and fear about what the consequences would be. That officer turned out to be quite right. At least on certain parts of the front line, Ukraine did begin to suffer terribly because soon after that terrible meeting in the Oval Office, the Americans suspended military aid. And what had the most immediate effect on the Ukrainians is the suspension of intelligence sharing. By stopping that, the Americans forced Ukraine to fight black on some parts of the front. Without access to American satellite intelligence and other intelligence, the Ukrainians could not see where the Russians were preparing attacks, or where Russian fighter jets and bombers were taking off and heading toward Ukraine. It really had an enormously negative effect on Ukraine's ability to fight. So the fears were justified that day for sure.
Impulsive, Stubborn, Emotional
Am I right that the recent polls in Ukraine show that Zelensky now has greater trust from Ukrainians after the situation at the White House?
Definitely. The polls pretty consistently show that his approval ratings went up by about 10 percentage points. So from around 50% to more than 60% support. And I could feel that just talking to people, to military officers, to officials in Kyiv and even to people who really didn't support Zelenskyy before. People who'd never voted for Zelenskyy were generally saying that he behaved with much dignity and self respect. In short, the way that they want their leader to behave. I think it caused an enormous surge of support for the president.
But he was also very angry, right? You’ve known him for some time - how angry was he?
The thing that people didn't see when they watched the video from the Oval Office was all of the meetings that had been building up to this clash, this argument. Those were moments when Zelensky was growing increasingly frustrated with the American side. And honestly, the Americans were also growing very frustrated with him. This was happening for about two weeks as Ukraine and the United States were negotiating various versions of this deal to share Ukraine's natural resources and different versions of a possible ceasefire between Ukraine and Russia. These conversations were going on in different cities, different venues, between different officials. But they were very tough, very often emotional. That was the background to the Oval Office meeting that everyone saw. Behind the scenes, the relationship was building toward that kind of disaster.
Zelensky isn't usually that uncomfortable though. Have you seen him that upset before?
He’s quite an impulsive, stubborn …
Emotional …
… intuitive kind of leader. What he does not usually do is to spend a lot of time looking at charts and graphs and analysis or listening to many different voices to try to come to some kind of consensus view. He believes in his own instinct as a leader, as a politician, as a negotiator. He tends to make decisions very fast and often driven by, honestly, emotion. I think that's what we've seen consistently throughout his life, but also during the war. That has been his leadership style. We saw that also in the Oval Office meeting. Maybe the rational thing would have been to sit there quietly and not respond to some of the provocations from vice president Vance. But Zelensky could not do that.
I also think that an important characteristic of Zelensky himself is his fearlessness, his bravery. It’s part of why he got up at 5 a.m. on February 24th 2022 and went to the government headquarters instead of fleeing into exile. Is this the main reason without which Ukraine would have lost by now?
I think that was a big factor, yes - his leadership, his decision to stay and not run away from Kyiv, as so many people wanted him to do and invited him to do. That was a big factor. I don't want to say that it was the main reason. The main reason was the bravery of the Ukrainian people and the Ukrainian armed forces that stood up and fought back against the Russians. But Zelensky's leadership has really been instrumental and critical to Ukraine's ability to get international support. Ukraine has been extremely reliant on international support from the beginning of the full-scale invasion. It would not survive without foreign military aid, especially from the United States. So that kind of diplomacy, keeping the United States on his side, keeping the aid flowing, has been Zelensky's main mission and his main accomplishment. I think that colors in many ways the relationship with Trump, because it was easier under Biden.
The Biden team was more open to treating Zelensky as a war hero, as a figure of world historical importance. Just a hero. And that it is not the kind of treatment that Zelensky gets from the Trump administration, which is frustrating to him and makes it more difficult for him to keep the United States on his side, because the Trump administration does not see him as some kind of heroic figure. They see him as dependent.
Does Trump respect Zelensky?
I don't know. I can't say. I think Trump changes his mind on things very often. I have no idea. It doesn't look like it to me.
“He's aged a lot”
Do you remember the first moment you met Zelensky?
Sure. I met him when he was running for president in March of 2019. He was then still a comedian and I actually met him backstage at his comedy show. He continued to perform while also running for president of the country, which was kind of amazing. We talked about his plans for the presidency, for Ukraine, if he would win the elections. I remember it quite well.
How has the war changed him? Three years of such pressure must have had a big impact on him. When I see his photos online, they show how happy he looked before the war and how tired he looks now.
Yes, that’s to be expected.
It seems like he has aged a lot.
Yes, he's aged a lot. He's seen things that have aged him - that's how he explains it. We talked about this a few months into the full scale invasion. I pointed out that he looked older, even though only a few months had passed since our previous conversation, he looked like he had aged maybe five years. And he admitted: yes, I've gotten older, because of all the horrible things I see every day, the torture and the war crimes that the Russian soldiers commit. He sees that day in and day out. The images, the victims. Everyday he talks to families of victims, he talks to soldiers. He feels that it's his responsibility to stop the war in a way that will not be humiliating for the Ukrainian people. That's an unimaginable level of pressure and responsibility. I think that is why he is no longer the easygoing funnyman that I met in 2019. He's a much more harsh, tough, stubborn leader. Some of those qualities existed before, but now they've grown more extreme and harder.
When you told Zelensky that you wanted to capture the first year of the war in your book The Showman, he was surprised, is that right? He didn't think that it would last a year, not to mention three years…
He said: What, you think the war will not be over in a year? And I didn't really know what to say. This was maybe two months into the full scale war. Nothing was clear at the time, so I didn't know how to answer him. But he clearly did not believe it would last a year, let alone three years. And considering how much pressure he's been under these past three years, from what I hear, he's still holding up very well. I've seen him in various venues, most recently in Munich in February, and he still has incredible life strength and stamina. I don't know where he gets it. Some members of his team who are younger than him and perhaps more fit physically, are exhausted. And they always tell me that they don't know how he keeps going, because they themselves are just so tired. They can't handle the travel schedule, the pressure, the stress. But he somehow does.
What was the conversation in Munich about, by the way? Can you say?
The conversation in Munich was when he made his decision that he would not accept the American deal to use Ukraine’s natural resources as some kind of repayment of debt to the United States. He made that decision in Munich and then gathered some journalists in a room and talked to us for about an hour about his reasoning and why he felt it was the right thing for the Ukrainian people, even though it was extremely risky for him to do that, because he was risking the loss of American support. It was quite an emotional moment, but he seemed to have regained a high level of confidence in himself. I think what helped were the European leaders who he spoke with in Munich and who told him that Europe would back him no matter what. With that kind of support, he felt confident enough to tell Trump no.
Yet the situation has changed, right? Now he has to befriend Trump again, and his team is making significant progress with the Trump administration at the moment.
That's right. Things look very good now if you compare it to the situation in Munich in the middle of February. We've come a long way. The relationship looks to be much better now. But honestly, the Ukrainians have also made a lot of concessions to Trump's team. They have set aside and stopped talking about a lot of the things that they were demanding as preconditions to peace. They've even essentially stopped talking about security guarantees. Zelensky, of course, wanted security guarantees to be strong and clear before he signed any peace deal with the Russians. But now it seems that he accepts he will not get that from the Americans. He and his team are moving ahead toward some kind of ceasefire even without security guarantees.
Joining NATO?
I spoke with former Ukrainian Minister of Foreign Affairs Dmytro Kuleba a few days ago. He said Zelensky still has a place at the table with Trump. But in February, Zelensky said he would step down if it would bring peace to the country. Did he mean that seriously?
Yes, I think so. As I recall, he said that he would step down if NATO granted membership to Ukraine. I think he did mean that seriously. Zelensky wants to be remembered by his people as a real hero, as someone who led Ukraine out of a disastrous war. I think joining NATO would be an absolute dream in terms of the conclusion for Ukraine at the end of this war. If Zelensky achieves that, I think he would secure his place in the history books of the Ukrainian people as one of the best leaders they ever had. But it doesn't look like he'll get that. The final chapter in his leadership is still very much open. It has yet to be written.
What is his ultimate goal right now? What is reachable within his mandate as president?
I think he can sign a ceasefire agreement. He can sign a peace deal with the Russians. But the political question is a big one, and it's something that worries him a lot. He can sign any document he wants, but it's not clear if the Ukrainian people will accept it. He wants to be certain that before he agrees to a ceasefire, he's able to convince the Ukrainian people that it’s the right thing to do. That's the challenge in the coming weeks. A lot of people I've talked to in Kyiv say that any kind of peace deal with the Russians will be political suicide for Zelensky, as it would be for any president signing that deal. That is a common opinion in Kyiv right now. I don't know if I agree with it. In my view, given his leadership and the support he enjoys today, Zelensky can politically survive a deal with the Russians. I think he'll be able to say that the Americans left Ukrainians no choice, that it was a choice between losing American support and signing the deal, that they were facing diplomatic pressure from the Americans and military pressure from the Russians, and that they needed to sign the deal. It is an argument that I think many ukrainians will understand. But it's still an open question if Zelensky can successfully make that argument to Ukrainians.
Would he want to run again for the presidency in the next election?
Yes, I think he would.
Because he really hates losing. “Losing is worse than death,” as I remember his quote from your book.
That’s right. I think he will run again. I think he wants to continue as a leader. It's a difficult role, transitioning from a peacetime president to a wartime president. He did that very successfully, very fast. But transitioning back to a peacetime president may be the more challenging transformation. I don't know if he can do it. But I think he wants to try.
… and he will keep fighting. Is that the most likely scenario in your opinion?
I don't know. It's not only up to him. In regard to the military side of things, it depends on how much fight the Ukrainian military can still bring to the battlefield. We don't know. Resources are really badly depleted. I think they can hold out for quite a long time. Some of Zelensky's advisors have been saying that even without American help, Ukraine can hold out for one year. That's a pretty optimistic scenario, I think. So it's not Zelensky's choice whether to fight on forever. It depends on other factors outside of his control.
